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Matt Jones using JDrum to Make a Point

  • Jeff Drummond said... (original post)

    In my opinion, when you hire a coach to do a job, you give him the time to see it through. No reasonable person thinks that can be done in two years. You need the time to fully adjust your staff, the roster and the style to what you're trying to accomplish. The number used to be five years, but the kind of money involved these days has sliced it to three.

    So he's had one decent year and one bad year. The third year tells you more about where you stand. Like I said in my comment referenced by the OP, the outlook is not good, so the dilemma is the public perception that 2012 is going to be a wasted year ending with the inevitable.

    It's just hard to see 2012 being any better. We should have a few more weapons on offense but we'll be working behind an almost completely new OLine. The defense will be very young, new secondary, and the loss of Trevathan and Guy.

    I'm not saying there is no way we could be better but it's just difficult to see at this point because a lot of the guys we will be depending on haven't proven anything yet.

    The last thing I would mention is that in most cases a good staff can take what talent is already in the program and elevate it (see Franklin at VU this year). This staff took what many considered an underachieving 7-6 team from 09 and went 6-7 with them and with the talent graduated or otherwise left that team we are standing at 4-6 and staring down the barrel of a 4-8 season.

    I just can't imagine this staff has it in them to take a 4-8 team and win what I would consider a minimum to get the fans back on board of 7 games next season.

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    "Kentucky Football needs to be and will be a championship contender in the SEC."~Mitch Barnhart 11/4/12

  • Realistically Michael the 08 and 09 recruiting classes werent good. That has seriously hamstrung Joker. With that said sometimes you have to fight with what you have. An effective leader can mask some holes. Unfortunately the holes arent closing and that is where I have a problem.

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  • princeuk21 said... (original post)

    Yeah Joker's offense put up some pretty pathetic numbers in 06 and 07. I can see where you were dissaponted. Geez

    I thought when Minter, Nord and Summers came in it gave us as good of staff as I have in seen in many years. That being said, Brown should have been gone, I think Joker will try to find a new OC this year, and if he does Sanders should go. We are never going to compete in the SEC trying to run a power offense with 2 & 3 star kids competing with 4 & 5 star kids. Just because of who we are we are not going to get enough quality kids to compete. KY is a basketball school stuck in a FB Conference. We have to get an inovative OC or head coach and get the players who run it. You never saw a lightweight get in the ring with Ali.

  • Warmother51 said... (original post)

    Realistically Michael the 08 and 09 recruiting classes werent good. That has seriously hamstrung Joker. With that said sometimes you have to fight with what you have. An effective leader can mask some holes. Unfortunately the holes arent closing and that is where I have a problem.

    So the program was not in good shape when Joker took over? Which means all the talk and rationale for the HCIW was all non sense.

    later...

  • alphacat93 said... (original post)

    He's pretty self-absorbed and has a great opinion of himself. And, while he uses Jeff to support an opinion in this case, he has little to no knowledge of football and his commentary on it is typically WAY off.

    Gotcha...I guess I don't see that, but I would agree that depth of football analysis is not an area of strength for Matt.

    Danville (23) / Atlanta (16) / Westport, CT (1) / @tbradg

  • I think a nail is on the head by a couple of posters here Jeff. What is the purpose of he Head Coach In Waiting program if not to provide continuity and prevent that "time" needed to get settled into a coach? It's not supposed to have the same rules applied, where a coach needs 3 years to get "their" style installed. It was the same style, the same defensive coordinator, the same offensive coordinator (to a degree) and the same kids following mainly the same coaches.

    Without an injury to Lattimore, we'd have two straight years without a bowl and then there would be no question whether or not Joker would need to go.

  • HCIW was to keep Joker at UK. He had paid his dues and was getting lucrative offers from programs like Oklahoma to take a step up. The thought was to hand the program over to someone who was familiar with it and had a passion to be here long-term. It had nothing to do with his readiness to hit the ground running. It's unfair to suggest that, because someone has been part of an organization for X number of years that they're ready to run it from Day 1 without any hiccups. I've been with the guys from 247Sports (with various companies) for the greater part of 12 years, but if they named me CEO tomorrow, I'd have days where I struggled to adjust. Anyone in the real world would IMO. twocents

    As for "Without an injury to Lattimore..." That's the ol' IF'N GAME. Kentucky can play the hell out of that. Without a receiver making a crazy-good catch on third-and-long from the shadow of his own goalposts, Auburn may not beat UK last year and be an afterthought for the championship. Without Mike Hartline making a dumb decision, UK might win another bowl game. Without Derrick Locke fumbling going into the end zone vs. Pitt... Without the NCAA ruling Jeremy Jarmon ineligible... Without Jared Lorenzen throwing blindly into the flat against Florida... Without Jerry Claiborne giving it to Mark Higgs 4x in a row up the gut against Tennessee... biggrin

    Things are what they are.

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    E-mail: JDRUM@247SPORTS.COM Follow me on Twitter: http://twitter.com/#!/JDrumUK

  • Jeff Drummond said... (original post)


    Things are what they are.

    And right now, things are bad and look to be getting worse. Bottom line is I just don't think Joker has the stuff to be the Head Coach at UK but he will be given a 3rd year to prove me and many others wrong. Next year has the potential to be another lost year setting the program back even further. For me, the sooner UK makes the change the sooner we have a chance to climbing back to respectability. It pains me to say this because I know that Joker wants to succeed in the worst way but it just isn't going to happen!

  • I share Jeff's feelings on this. I am however sceptical about the third year. I just don't see how the program has fallen off so quickly. Joker was given the job to keep stability in the program. That means we should either have the same record or better in my book. It's not like he inherited a program on probation. The UK program was riding a nice wave of momentum for our program. My biggest problem is the total lack of any improvement. I understand growing pains and having young players but you should see some sign of improvement as the year goes on. I have seen zero. That is why I see no reason to keep this debacle going.

  • In sports you dont stay stagnant. You either progress or digress. Anyone out there, see us improving the last 2 years?

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  • Warmother51 said... (original post)

    In sports you dont stay stagnant. You either progress or digress. Anyone out there, see us improving the last 2 years?

    I understand what you're getting at, but I don't necessarily think that's true in all cases. There's all kinds of examples of teams having a down year and bouncing back. The big question here is whether or not UK will be equipped to do that.

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    E-mail: JDRUM@247SPORTS.COM Follow me on Twitter: http://twitter.com/#!/JDrumUK

  • It seems that for the people who believe Joker's success at UK will give us a long and loyal coach, should be willing to be a little more patient to see if he can make a go of it. It's too early to tell and next year may not reveal too much either. I go with this camp. For those that believe a big name coach is the answer and have given up on Joker, you had better get started shaking some trees to get in-state tuition for all athletes, push senate to act on some bonding for football, and find a steady supply of big name coaches to replenish every few years as they will move on or get the boot. Can Joker get it done, I have no idea, but I'm willing to be patient because I feel it's the best option to build a solid and stable program I so desperately want.

  • Jeff Drummond said... (original post)

    I understand what you're getting at, but I don't necessarily think that's true in all cases. There's all kinds of examples of teams having a down year and bouncing back. The big question here is whether or not UK will be equipped to do that.

    Sure there are some cases but as a whole are you constantly improving? If you are stagnant you are getting worse. We are seeing that now. We had 3 years where we ended up going from better than average to average. Now we are seeing a true digression. If I could see some improvement then I could say this is a down year but UK has had opportunities to build upon and UK has failed. Its not all Jokers fault but at the end of the day when you carry the whistle you take the heat.

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    It smells like microwaved homeless people in here.

  • I honestly don't feel it is necessary to keep a coach for 15 years. If someone comes in and does a great job for 4 or 5 years and leaves that would be fine for me. The key is to get a really good coach. This staff has made some obvious and awful mistakes in recruiting, hiring, and coaching. Joker acts and talks like he is beaten and his team plays that way. You have to get good before you worry about losing a coach.

  • michaelman1 said... (original post)

    So the program was not in good shape when Joker took over? Which means all the talk and rationale for the HCIW was all non sense.

    later...

    Joker was set up to fail and he will. He has no chance to make it because no amount of recruiting can save the perception he is a lame duck.

    *****Clean that up, MHD. No name-calling or disrespect to UK folks. Thx, JD*****

    This post was edited by Jeff Drummond 3 years ago

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  • Warmother51 said... (original post)

    Sure there are some cases but as a whole are you constantly improving? If you are stagnant you are getting worse. We are seeing that now. We had 3 years where we ended up going from better than average to average. Now we are seeing a true digression. If I could see some improvement then I could say this is a down year but UK has had opportunities to build upon and UK has failed. Its not all Jokers fault but at the end of the day when you carry the whistle you take the heat.

    UK's at the end of an unprecedented 5-year run for the football program. I say it's bad year until given more evidence to support anything more. I do fear that it could become that.

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    E-mail: JDRUM@247SPORTS.COM Follow me on Twitter: http://twitter.com/#!/JDrumUK

  • princeuk21 said... (original post)

    Yeah Joker's offense put up some pretty pathetic numbers in 06 and 07. I can see where you were dissaponted. Geez

    In 06 and 07, we had better players at the skilled positions who could up the numbers in Joker's offense... that doesn't mean that Joker's style of offense was great. It just means we had talented players, who could make big plays out of pathetic play calling.

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  • Jeff Drummond said... (original post)

    I hope the main thing people take from that comment is that I'm genuinely torn on the issue. I think he deserves to be back for a third year, but I also feel like they might be delaying the inevitable. I hope I'm wrong on the second part. The best thing for UK football would be for Joker to get things turned around and be the face of the program for a long time. You guys know I've long said that UK will be a revolving door of coaches unless it finds someone like that. But if that's gonna happen, 2012 has to be a complete turnaround.

    ...But, Jeff, as you were kindly quoted the problem is we all know that right now the writing is on the wall. We can look at the product on the field, make assumptions that we aren't going to magically see playmakers arise from folks sitting on the sidelines, and by process of elimination we look at the recruiting and we get zero, zilch in the form of playmakers coming in outside of potential at QB (which some of us actually think we might already have in Max Smith).

    Wtih that said, I can certainly understand being torn. I'm so angry at this point that I'm just posting to Mitch's Twitter account for some media relations person to read. The stubborness he is showing and not indicating at all that he's disappointed in the progress thus far and saying that he will sit down with Joker & co. at the end of the year for evaluation is beyond me. Now, with that said, lets say he does keep Joker... but demands staff changes much like I think he did last year. What is the difference between instability at the HC vs. the staff? I see little - there is something to say for continuity and you can't have continuity with a program that went 6-7 last year, and follows up with 4-8 (potentially).

    Just my opinion but I can understand your complex, Jeff. I just gave up on Joker, already... Sorry

  • I think there is a lot more wrong with this team right now than not having a couple of more play makers. This team is getting beat worse than during the probation years when we had 70 scholarship players and depended on 15 or so walk-ons to fill out the roster. If we had a couple of play makers it just means we might be losing by 2 or 3 scores instead of 4 or 5.

    "Ignorance is constricted awareness" - Deepak Chopra

  • I agree Deeeefense, there has been something bad going on for quite some time. We may not have Cobb but we have some solid SEC football players on both side of the ball. There is something wrong on the inside whether it is coaching dissension or the players see something they don't respect I don't know but I think it is more than football.

  • I agree with what you're saying, Jeff, but I think that's just the beginning of the issues. Obviously I'm not around the locker room or even the program that much, but I know what I hear from the coaches and players and I know what I see on the field.

    - Not only does Joker never say the right thing, he usually says things that give them impression that he either doesn't care much about what the fan base thinks or that he is in over his head. For the last few weeks I turn off the radio or TV every time he comes on because he sounds so "Gillispiesque." He is infuriating.

    - If we don't have the playmakers like we did back in 2007, why are we still running the offense like we do?

    - From Rich Brooks, I got the feeling that his players wanted to go out on the field and kick some flippin' backside every day. Do it for coach. No prisoners. I'm just not getting that right now.

    - I've listened to Tom Leach do UK football for 15 years and this is the first time I've heard him like this. His voice is dripping with disappointment and sarcasm in a way onyl a long-time fan of his could detect or understand. I want Tom to have faith in UK football again. Yeah, this is pretty much the weirdest point I've ever made, but it goes along with you, Mr. Drummond. You are two fellas that, at least publicly, usually toe the party line. It gives me the sense that you both know even more sad, sad issues going on behind the scenes but just can't talk about them.

    I wanted to give Joker some more time, but I don't have another year of this in me. Just the little taste of success and hope from 2007 has spoiled me and I can't stand to see UK football go down again, even if it's with a Big Blue through-and-through guy at the helm.

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  • Joker will get another year barring the extreme outside shot that a top coach wants the job next year. Next season will set up to be a make or break for CJP, I am sad to say. I had very high hopes that CJP would be able to change our ways with recruiting, and while we've seen undeniable improvement, it's not at the level that I expected.

    I am willing to throw my support behind him for one more season, but the 12 campaign will be it.

    Danville (23) / Atlanta (16) / Westport, CT (1) / @tbradg

  • There has been a ton of great points in this thread...a really good discussion...so kudos for that because it's exactly why I'm here.

    On to the topic, JD, you said that next year is a make or break year, and there has to be a complete turn around. I agree. What I'm curious to know is, what is yours and everyone else's opinion on what a turnaround year would be. How would you measure the turnaround?

    Also, do you think that UK has the young talent in the program or coming in next year to take necessary steps? You said the whole what if game, and that is what it is....but I can't help but wonder if having a healthy Oline and a healthy Daryl Collins makes a difference? Just thinking out loud.