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Empty seats do not fire Joker

  • Hell at $41 dollars (which is what I pay for tickets) a ticket we pull $19 million a year in ticket sales at a capacity of 67,500 people. Using that math we would have to average 20,000 fans to lose out on 13.5 million dollars in ticket sales. Even in the worst of worst years of UK football we've averaged over 40,000.

    Who knows really because we don't have all the facts in regards to the total dollar figures attached to ticket revenue but I don't see us shelling out $4-5 million to get a "top" coach, then shelling out another $1-1.5 million for recruiting to get the players needed to be an SEC competitor. Then, knowing a top coach is going to want top facilities to compete with the other top universities and you begin to realize why if Joker is fired it will be for another coordinator / low level head man getting his shot on a big stage and will be expected to win with what he has. because UK doesn't have that much to gain from competing in the conference when they are getting paid regardless.

    Now if the SEC bowl revenue split was to go away then I think you would see UK try to take a more proactive approach at being truly competitive.

    shauner17

  • What I'm getting at is that is $13 mil per year that you would lose with a completely empty stadium. Fact is there will never ever be a completely empty stadium for these games.

    Using your numbers for next season for example, we have seven home games and lets say we average only 40,000 tickets sold per game. That comes to missing out on $690,150 per home game or $4.8 million for the season. My thinking is do you pay a coach $4 million a year plus let's say a $1.5 million dollar recruiting budget (which is what some on here keep saying it will take) which is $5.5 million a year total to put $4.8 million back on the bottom line a lose $700,000 a year to fill the stands.

    I'm just saying if we are talking dollars, it may be the better business decision to bring in another unknown with a similar salary as Joker (or keep Joker) in hopes that you get a slight turn around and get more seats filled without spending a ton of money doing it." As posted by Shauner17"

    This is why Barnhart's decision is already made.

    This post was edited by Maximus62865 on 10/23/2012 at 4:09 PM

    Maximus62865

  • You all aren't factoring in K-fund which is probably more revenue than the tickets themselves overall, parking passes, and vending. Adding all of those together your talking no less than $75 per person per game on average. Many seats are $100 including k-fund. Using all in $75 the 20,000 ticket drop over the last several years comes to $10.5 million drop in revenue annually.

    usa1000 ●

  • shauner17 said...

    What I'm getting at is that is $13 mil per year that you would lose with a completely empty stadium. Fact is there will never ever be a completely empty stadium for these games.

    Using your numbers for next season for example, we have seven home games and lets say we average only 40,000 tickets sold per game. That comes to missing out on $690,150 per home game or $4.8 million for the season. My thinking is do you pay a coach $4 million a year plus let's say a $1.5 million dollar recruiting budget (which is what some on here keep saying it will take) which is $5.5 million a year total to put $4.8 million back on the bottom line a lose $700,000 a year to fill the stands.

    I'm just saying if we are talking dollars, it may be the better business decision to bring in another unknown with a similar salary as Joker (or keep Joker) in hopes that you get a slight turn around and get more seats filled without spending a ton of money doing it.

    shhh. I don't think people are supposed to know this secret.

    If it has a name, it's the Vanderbilt formula. Keep expenses low and run your entire sports program off of the TV contract. As a business move, it's not a bad one.

    I don't think UK is there--that it's ever been there or that anybody wants it to go there. I believe that if there's the feasibility of hiring a top-flight coach, the purse will open. But likewise, there's no need to overspend on an unproven coach. I don't even know if there's a name out there who would help season ticket sales more than any other--I think it's clear that as long as his name isn't Joker, sales will improve some and any further improvement has to come from results on the field.

    djkycat54906

  • usa1000 said...

    You all aren't factoring in K-fund which is probably more revenue than the tickets themselves overall, parking passes, and vending. Adding all of those together your talking no less than $75 per person per game on average. Many seats are $100 including k-fund. Using all in $75 the 20,000 ticket drop over the last several years comes to $10.5 million drop in revenue annually.

    And that's using only 20,000. If Joker stays we'll see even more like the other guy said. Closer to 13.5 million. I can't believe people don't understand this? It's unreal.

    footballcat65

  • Empty seats will cost Joker his job!!! It is all about wins and losses, but, wins will put people in the seats, losses will not. Especially, mounting losses.

    ukblueforever

  • First you have to have a complete lack of understanding about running a business to think $5 Mil a year in foregone revenue isn't just important, but critical to a university that is in need a many things both on the athletic and the academic infrastructure side of things.

    Second the $5 Mil figure which I think is pretty accurate for this years 30% drop in sales (including K-fund donations, parking passes etc.) is off the bottom line, not the top line. A lot of the costs of operating a football program are fixed. Coaches salaries, field maintenance, security at games, lights, equipment etc. It takes X number of dollars in ticket sales to reach break even - that is covering all those fixed costs. Ticket sales beyond break even increase the bottom line - i.e. profit. So profit is the last thing you reach and the first thing you lose.

    I don't know what break even per game ticket sales is but if we suffer say another 20% loss of ticket sales next year which would hypothetically occur if there are no major changes, then it would be approaching close to break even IMO. Losses beyond break even mean it's costing you money every time they play instead of making money.

    By every measure the lost ticket sales has had an enormous impact on those in decision making positions, and I fully expect some significant changes to occur in the coming months because of it.

    This post was edited by Deeeefense on 10/23/2012 at 10:51 PM

    "Ignorance is constricted awareness" - Deepak Chopra

    Deeeefense

  • Deeeefense said...

    First you have to have a complete lack of understanding about running a business to think $5 Mil a year in foregone revenue isn't just important, but critical to a university that is in need a many things both on the athletic and the academic infrastructure side of things.

    Second the $5 Mil figure which I think is pretty accurate for this years 30% drop in sales (including K-fund donations, parking passes etc.) is off the bottom line, not the top line. A lot of the costs of operating a football program are fixed. Coaches salaries, field maintenance, security at games, lights, equipment etc. It takes X number of dollars in ticket sales to reach break even - that is covering all those fixed costs. Ticket sales beyond break even increase the bottom line - i.e. profit. So profit is the last thing you reach and the first thing you lose.

    I don't know what break even per game ticket sales is but if we suffer say another 20% loss of ticket sales next year which would hypothetically occur if there are no major changes, then it would be approaching close to break even IMO. Losses beyond break even mean it's costing you money every time they play instead of making money.

    By every measure the lost ticket sales has had an enormous impact on those in decision making positions, and I fully expect some significant changes to occur in the coming months because of it.

    I understand what you're saying completely! Trust me I know $5 mil. in lost revenue is important but what I'm saying is would't you spend $4-5 mil plus a larger recruiting purse to put that $5 mil. back on the bottom line? At that point does the return on investment warrant the risk of pursuing a "top" guy like most think we should. Or will they not take that risk, hire another Joker type and hope he pans out and puts asses in seats without pouring money into the program. This is where I think the smartest "business" decision lies. So do empty seats fire Joker? Maybe, maybe not. Either way I think next season you have a head coach that UK is taking a chance on filling those seats with minimal financial risk.I.E. Joker with the hope that next year is the year we turn the corner, or a new Joker type they hope will bring enough excitement / curiosity to the program to raise ticket sales.

    As far as the K-Fund stuff goes who is naive enough to think that donation are going to suffer badly from this when basketball rules all things Kentucky here and you must donate more money to the K-Fund to be eligible for basketball season tickets? Parking? All the reserved parking is still sold out. Even with the 20% decline in ticket sales this year I was unable to get an Orange lot pass but I'm still on the waiting list...

    But, make no mistake. Most of the revenue from football comes from the SEC TV contract as well as the bowl split. That is why UK will never consider re-aligning with a different conference. Because the SEC owns the football market and we get an equal share if we finish first or dead last every year.

    This post was edited by shauner17 on 10/24/2012 at 8:51 AM

    shauner17

  • shauner17 said...

    As far as the K-Fund stuff goes who is naive enough to think that donation are going to suffer badly from this when basketball rules all things Kentucky here and you must donate more money to the K-Fund to be eligible for basketball season tickets?


    Not following your argument here. You must make a hefty donation to the K-fund to secure the better football seats as well.

    "Ignorance is constricted awareness" - Deepak Chopra

    Deeeefense

  • First, no one has gotten new basketball tickets except for a very few insiders in 20 years so that is fixed. Basketball is great but it brings relatively few alumni and supporters to Lexington because the games are often during the week and if you are lucky you can get two tickets. Football on the other hand brings in tens of thousands of alumni and supporters for every game which is an all day event. It is critical in building support and private funding for the University. It builds generations which attend and identify with UK. Football has a huge effect on non-athletic fund raising. Having said all that it is absurd to short fund the football program to shunt funding to non-revenue sports. I just got my offer for complimentary free tickets to women's basketball. Think about that. I am happy for the women to do well but the truth is just very few people care enough to buy a ticket to a game. Think again why would UK then spend more on a women's basketball coach than they do on coordinators for football. It is just a foolish business model with a narrow view of the future.

    zcats

  • You can take the parking passes out of the equation. They were sold out this year and there is already a waiting list for next year's passes.

    bigbluerules

  • A couple of things here...

    I do think that empty seats can fire Joker. That said, Commonwealth Stadium is not near empty enough to do that. We still have more people attending games than at Vandy and they are running an athletic program and seem to be doing ok. I think season ticket sales will have to drop as much again next year as they did this year before it really starts to have an impact on things.

    nawlinsbaby ●

  • nawlinsbaby said...

    A couple of things here...

    I do think that empty seats can fire Joker. That said, Commonwealth Stadium is not near empty enough to do that. We still have more people attending games than at Vandy and they are running an athletic program and seem to be doing ok. I think season ticket sales will have to drop as much again next year as they did this year before it really starts to have an impact on things.

    Didn't mean to put "A couple of things here..."

    the other thing wasn't really related to this topic so I didn't post it.

    nawlinsbaby ●

  • Deeeefense said...

    First you have to have a complete lack of understanding about running a business to think $5 Mil a year in foregone revenue isn't just important, but critical to a university that is in need a many things both on the athletic and the academic infrastructure side of things.

    Second the $5 Mil figure which I think is pretty accurate for this years 30% drop in sales (including K-fund donations, parking passes etc.) is off the bottom line, not the top line. A lot of the costs of operating a football program are fixed. Coaches salaries, field maintenance, security at games, lights, equipment etc. It takes X number of dollars in ticket sales to reach break even - that is covering all those fixed costs. Ticket sales beyond break even increase the bottom line - i.e. profit. So profit is the last thing you reach and the first thing you lose.

    I don't know what break even per game ticket sales is but if we suffer say another 20% loss of ticket sales next year which would hypothetically occur if there are no major changes, then it would be approaching close to break even IMO. Losses beyond break even mean it's costing you money every time they play instead of making money.

    By every measure the lost ticket sales has had an enormous impact on those in decision making positions, and I fully expect some significant changes to occur in the coming months because of it.

    The money generated through the TV deal is a fixed asset. The dollars from the ticket sales are a variable asset. I sure hope Mitch is not covering expenses like salaries, building cost and lease aggrements with a variable asset. Then it becomes a house of cards.

    This post was edited by Maximus62865 on 10/25/2012 at 3:00 PM

    Maximus62865

  • bigbluerules said...

    You can take the parking passes out of the equation. They were sold out this year and there is already a waiting list for next year's passes.

    I'm not saying that isn't true, but I am saying I was offered a parking pass this year. Before the season started and season ticket sales went to hell I was about another 3-4 years of point accumulation away from being able to get into the parking pass level. Maybe they all got sold, but that's because they probably got left to first year ticket buyers.

    TransyCat09

  • nawlinsbaby said...

    A couple of things here...

    I do think that empty seats can fire Joker. That said, Commonwealth Stadium is not near empty enough to do that. We still have more people attending games than at Vandy and they are running an athletic program and seem to be doing ok. I think season ticket sales will have to drop as much again next year as they did this year before it really starts to have an impact on things.

    The Vandy stadium point you make is irrelevant ... Vandy's stadium is less than 2/3 the size of Commonwealth to start with. Our attendance could drop by 25,000 a game (from capacity) and we'd still have more seats filled than Vandy.

    WildcatKNH :: my NCAA Resource Center > www.knhayes.com/NCAA

    wildcatknh

  • I got a question. Btw I was for Joker as head coach up till the Gators and Hogs. Now I think he should go.

    But most if us have said that this would be a bad yr, & next yr we could be really good. With that said,

    If Joker comes back and we are good like alot of ys think we will be,

    Will people still not come to games if Joker is our coach but we are winning?
    And
    Will we give the credit to Joker for "Turning it around" next yr if we are good, with a team we already think is going to be good next yr?

    catfaninMs

  • catfaninMs said...

    I got a question. Btw I was for Joker as head coach up till the Gators and Hogs. Now I think he should go.

    But most if us have said that this would be a bad yr, & next yr we could be really good. With that said,

    If Joker comes back and we are good like alot of ys think we will be,

    Will people still not come to games if Joker is our coach but we are winning? And Will we give the credit to Joker for "Turning it around" next yr if we are good, with a team we already think is going to be good next yr?

    Good question.

    As I've said multiple times, I will be there regardless of who is coaching. I support the school and the kids representing my school. Empty seats embarass the kids playing for us, and hurt future recruiting. I don't see how anyone can argue that point.

    Sadly, I believe there were people who stopped coming to the games when Joker took the job. I don't think I need to explain why, but honeslty I'm glad those fools are gone. There was another batch of fans who had very little patience, and jumped ship with his first bad loss. Nevermind Joker's streak ending wins over South Carolina and Tennessee. I think we can get some of those fans back with quality SEC wins. It's too bad we've had so many injuries, particular to the QBs, I think we could have gotten some of those wins with Max Smith.

    Point is, the original poster asked if empty seats fire joker, I don't think so. Losses will fire Joker. Our fans (real fans), should support this program as if it's their own kids out there playing. They deserve it.

    Hooplehead

  • From one enabler to another...Hoople great post! +1

    Suchy500

  • Hooplehead said...

    Our administration should support this program as if it's their own kids out there playing. They deserve it.

    Fixed.

    Beavis13

  • wildcatknh said...

    My one single empty seat may not get a new coach any faster ... but 25,000 empty seats week in and week out will ... trust me.

    You might be right, maybe not, but I can guarantee you that your empty seat will effect the caliber of coaches interested in coming here.

    What coach worth his salt will want to come to a program with so many fickle and apathetic fans? The Kentucky football coaching job is already damn near impossible by itself. Enthusiastic and loyal fan support is the one thing that UK can have to help balance the scales a little bit. I wish more fans would understand that. You don't see empty stands at Arkansas or Auburn when they have bad seasons. That is one of the reasons why top caliber coaches will always be interested in those jobs. Kentucky doesn't have the best football facilities in the conference, and we certainly don't have the most fertile recruiting grounds in our state, but we do have one of the greatest fan bases in college athletics, when we want to be.

    Stoops Troops reporting for duty .... Which way to the front lines?

    jasonukfan

  • Parking passes could be the biggest rip off outside of gas prices that we have seen in some time...

    wildcatdon ●

  • Beavis13 said...

    How does this even happen?

    shrug

    There are evil things being done in the kingdom my lord. lol

    UKlaw82

  • jasonukfan said...

    You might be right, maybe not, but I can guarantee you that your empty seat will effect the caliber of coaches interested in coming here.

    What coach worth his salt will want to come to a program with so many fickle and apathetic fans? The Kentucky football coaching job is already damn near impossible by itself. Enthusiastic and loyal fan support is the one thing that UK can have to help balance the scales a little bit. I wish more fans would understand that. You don't see empty stands at Arkansas or Auburn when they have bad seasons. That is one of the reasons why top caliber coaches will always be interested in those jobs. Kentucky doesn't have the best football facilities in the conference, and we certainly don't have the most fertile recruiting grounds in our state, but we do have one of the greatest fan bases in college athletics, when we want to be.

    Yep!

    Suchy500

  • Beavis13 said...

    How does this even happen?

    shrug

    I have absolutely no clue. Its ridiculous

    His older bro is staunch UK guy and no clue how he picked the Dawgs.

    This post was edited by KnownAsB on 10/29/2012 at 8:29 AM

    KnownAsB

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